Isn’t that the wrong photo? Pretty sure that’s from 2014 and not from the Tucson VoP photo.

Also the Tucson forensics official stated the one that was kicked around was not a child.

You can compare that photograph to this video posted at the bottom of this comment.

side-by-side

Weird how the picture arguing it’s a child’s skull because of the much more prominent forehead happened to use a screen cap taken looking down at the skull where the forehead seems more prominent, rather than the screen cap looking head on at a similar angle to the picture they’re comparing to.

What does this one photo prove? Are there other white crosses marking other areas?

Well, with only one site and one upside-down cross, it's not really useful information. You could just as easily pick anything else around the site - a tree with unique branches, some specific rock, whatever - and claim that's a mark they use. You need more than one reference point to show the white cross is related.

upside down white crosses

I didn't even know about this. Thanks man. About the skull, news articles say it was an adult skull. So unfortunately, you have to put that into theory. Because unless an independent examiner checks the skull, we can't really know. It seems cover ups like this have happening for a LONG time and the government is possibly actively involved.

You're doing a good service. I am grateful. But we do have to be careful with our wording. I myself still have trouble with it. But if we don't we could negatively affect the effort.

I wish VOP had taken better pics and measurements of the skull just in case something like this happened. Hopefully if something else pops up they will be more on top of it and gather more facts before releasing what they found.

Yeah they're not so good at presenting evidence. Which is probably why they're still alive.

I mean you make mistakes to learn from them so hopefully they did.

Don't. This subreddit is being watched. Just present a collection of evidence when there is some. But hey, do what you feel is right.

I recently went scouting through old Q posts trying to find something completely unrelated.

I noticed a lot of references to MS-13 references.

Who knows if there is any relation. Just throwing that out there as it stood out to me.

I figure the "illuminati" or grand overseers of humanity or whoever

Created and run most major religions and gangs and organizations.

Though I also would say these orgs do not realize who is truly running the show.

For example, Scientology has 10s of thousands of acolytes, I guarantee less than 10 maybe less than 5 individuals in this multi billion dollar organization know of their connection to an even more powerful group and those individuals are either the very highest leadership or trusted advisors whos names are never public.

The Same i am sure applys to MS-13

This gives the highest illuminati group camouflage as their actions come through dozens of unconnected groups so you cant put the pieces together and even if you lock down evidence on one group, 99% of that group doesnt even realize who they truly serve so they call you crazy and absolute WORST case scenario you truly pin some serious shit on them, they got dozens or hundreds of other groups and they sever all connection with the tainted group and move on

I have a theory that is the black nobility and the Catholic church because the black nobility sided with the pope at the time and thus both parties gained power. This was roughly 1,000 years ago? I also need to look into Egypt. Because in upper Egypt, theory is, they experienced famine and ate their children.

Despite his boasting, Ankhtifi may not have be lying about people being reduced to eating their children to survive. Abdel-Latif Al-Baghdadi, a physician/scholar from Baghdad who was in Egypt between 1194 to 1200 AD, tells of people who habitually ate human flesh; parents even ate their own children. Graves were ransacked for food, assassinations and robbery reigned unchecked and noblewomen implored to be bought as slaves. These horrific scenes had been caused by a low Nile flood, two years running.

What could have begun from simple desperation could have evolved over the millennia to become a cannibal cult. This is all just theory.

http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/humansac.htm

The Pope and Vatican is definetely connected, they are what PizzaGate should have focused on

Have you seen "The Keepers"

A priest was caught red handed raping his students at their private catholic school

The parents found out and went to the equivalent of the superintendent.

The Super said he would handle it

He handled it by placing the pedophile at another school where he was estimated to have raped over 150 children with the teachers being aware of what was occuring.

He would call teachers while class was in session and have them send whatever student he felt like seeing to his office.

He called his semen, the seed of the holy spirit or something like that.

The guy was never punished.

The Keepers goes further into other evidence but it is past the point of debate that the Church endorses and enables child molestation on a massive scale and possibly has for hundreds of years, think about how stigmatized victims already are, now think about how impossible it would have been to come forward before the internet, hell before the printing press.

Point being the Catholic Church has free reign to open churches everywhere on earth and not pay any kind of taxes and in fact be gifted free money for basically no reason other than their name and because they tell the sheep "god will bless you if you give us your money, Sign up your credit card for automatic payments!"

So we have a Religion with over a Billion adherents and endless wealth, and endless hidden knowledge (The Vatican Secret Archives dont forget they suppressed Galileos discoveries for a century)

Who has its fingers in almost every town on earth, and it is molesting children like a fucking assembly line.

I believe they are doing it to institute psychological changes, as the goal being sexual gratification is to simple for the problem to be on such a massive scale and to be enabled by the church.

No It has been proven molestation at different periods of a childs development causes specific, reproducible, and permanent changes to a childs personality and mind in ways we do not fully understand (I bet they understand though) and these changes actually become genetic, so if your parent was molested, but you never were you will still have permanent genetic abnormalities associated with molestation meaning that as long as they continue molesting everyone they can, they will have eventually genetically altered the entire human race

My pet theory is that basically humans grow stronger in response to stress.

These people probably believe they are strengthening the human race by over stressing the young permanently increasing their capabilities and teh capabilities of their children and childrens children.

So in a really fucked up way they view themselves as the good guys.

The thing that worries me, is they may be technically correct.

I have been and I know many others who were molested.

And it does have the power to permanently shatter you.

But in most of the scenarios I have seen, it activated some kind of innate power or talent,

I know a man who was Molested who created a multi-million dollar Defense Contracting company (go figure) and has created numerous businesses since then.

I know another who is a prodigy level artist.

and I myself have an IQ of 140+ and was reading at a college level in 5th grade.

Very Very anecdotal to be sure but as someone who dabbled in the art of growing plants, I see clear parallels.

For examples if you let a plant live a privileged good life never facing wind or damage or anything and then place it into a difficult situation such as high wind it will fall over and die, and if you let it grow to completion, the fruit will be less plentiful and smaller, this is fairly identical to what happens to privileged rich kids

2 techniques were utilized to combat this

one is called Low Stress Training, which was for example hanging fishing weights from the branches so they would have to grow stronger to accommodate the weight, you had to put the ideal amount of weight though, as too little would be nearly ineffective, and to much could break the branch.

I find this similar to typical life challenges such as employment, social interaction, and schooling.

The other type is High Stress training, the main one I utilized was snapping a growing branch enough to wear it was clearly broken and would be laying straight down but still connected to the plant enough to regrow the connection, what would happen is where the branch was snapped it would grow back stronger than anywhere else on the plant into a thick knot that could transport more nutrients to the branch making that branch grow exceptionally fast.

The risk was if you put too much stress on the plant it could go into shock and no longer improve itself in the face of the stress but wither and become even weaker than it was originally.

Sorry for the ranty lesson on horticulture but I feel like it is very analogous to what the Catholic Church is doing, they feel like everytime they molest a kid, they are snapping a branch while it is young with the goal of it growing back stronger than it could have ever been had that not happened, basically activating an innate human mechanism allowing the ability to overcome adversity in extreme situations, which in modern society would lead to Olympic Athletes, Genius inventors, and Amazing Authors.

Do not take this as an agreement or endorsement of their methods.

But I think true evil with no ray of goodness is exceedingly rare, and I just cant imagine them wasting so much time, money, and resources not to mention the risk of lynching and imprisonment if they were to get caught doing these things with no good reason.

These people probably believe they are strengthening the human race by over stressing the young permanently increasing their capabilities and teh capabilities of their children and childrens children.

I don't know if they did it with epigenetics in mind. I think this is part of an ancient ritual. There are links I have found to the black nobility because the Catholic church didn't have much power until the black nobility sided with them and before that, the first crusades in 1095 enabled Christianity to finally have a foothold through bloodshed and violence.

In 1095, Byzantine emperor Alexius I appealed to Pope Urban II for help against renewed Muslim invasions in the Byzantine–Seljuk Wars,[306] which caused Urban to launch the First Crusade aimed at aiding the Byzantine Empire and returning the Holy Land to Christian control.

I think this has a long history and the current leaders of this movement are the ones that enabled the Popes of this era to be in power. I believe it can be traced back to about 5,000 years ago in Ancient Egypt where things shifted. I feel, it's all connected. Ancient Egypt, Atlantis, black nobility, Catholic Church...it seems so bizarre, and frankly, silly...but everything for me at least, is connected. I'll present a theory with evidence soon.

I definitely will message you. I feel like you know people are like Reptilians and aliens, what if it's just a secret cult that believes eating children and sacrificing them gives them power? I feel like because there are and have been actual pedophiles throughout the ages, this kind of cult has capitalized on these people and created a power structure through black mail and desire in order to maintain their bloodlines and wealth. It's funny how humans keep doing the same thing over and over again, with varying results.

I mean I have read that forced sodomy is meant to tap into the Chakra system and have other more spiritual and esoteric reasonings involved.

But I find it quite coincidental that their is a correlation between their rituals, and reproducible long term changes in the human psyche and genetic structure.

How can we say Epigenetics is not just a modern term for what used to be considered magical?

Hell maybe even the ones doing the molestation believe it is 100% ritualistic and it is ones above them that have the residual genetic effects in mind.

It is complex and impossible to really be sure of.

A different but relevant theory I hold onto is the extra-dimensional beings theory.

This basically says their are Interdimensional Vampiric beings overlapping with our reality but in a layer beneath us, that feed off human negativity and negative emotional energy.

I wrote what I would call a pretty great summary of this phenomenon here, with Scientists, and CIA documents as my source material

https://www.reddit.com/r/C_S_T/comments/7jy5zd/you_can_travel_to_other_dimensions_and_humans/

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I mean I have read that forced sodomy is meant to tap into the Chakra system and have other more spiritual and esoteric reasonings involved.

That's not true. That's just whatchamacallit? It's a false rationalization of a wrong act to justify its use. Like: "Bathing in the blood of virgins will keep my young forever" (Countess Bathory)

If you mean the Archons, I'll be happy to know what you might. It's an interesting subject.

Yeah man I'm here for you.

Very strange indeed, pointing out Mayor Rothschild really hits a nerve with these fucks, cant count how many people have said

"BUT HE ISNT ONE OF THE BAD ROTHSCHILDS WIKIPEDIA SAYS SO"

as if the fucking Rothschilds couldnt edit wikipedia.

Then they will say "well why not just change his name"

to which I would say, leaving it as is, is a HUGE middle finger to anyone in the know and probably an open invitation to commit this behavior in Tuscon

I want you to prove to me that he is one of the rich rithschilds. So far everything I've read including his own family history says he's not one of them. His mom owned a furniture store. She wasn't a banker or a diplomat or whatever the Rothschilds do. She sold furniture.

Are you able to link him to THE rothschilds??

I have done a lot of looking into Craig and sure he did a 180 on this but he had been catching a lot of negative attention due to Lewis. This guy has actually caught pedophiles and works nationwide. In this interview he discusses his involvement in Pedogate and how the Las Vegas shooting was a anti gun false flag and hated on Hillary and Obama. Sometimes when you don't agree with how someone is running the show. Lewis seems like he is trying to run things and really has zero experience doing so. Sometimes you gotta know when it's time to walk away.

Interview starts at minute 6 https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=F385Pvou_tw

Maybe he just wasn't made aware of the knife discovery and it was probably left out the police report. He did have all nine. People aren't perfect and sometimes get misinformed of things. Shit all you have to do is go through this sub once a day to realize that. Are you positive about VOP rescuing children? I know they have helped that many homeless people. When did that happen? I am finding no info regarding that. I think you may have that info flipped around. Craig has for sure rescued more than 1 or 2. And he has been responsible for arresting several child traffickers. So the number of children he has saved by putting these people in jail is incalculable. Anyway I know from watching the videos that I would have a hard time working with Lewis so I don't blame him for wanting to move on.

Alright I just spent 30 minutes looking for that info through various searches and even on their Facebook. It is not easily verified. I have been keeping up with this since the beginning and this is the first time I have heard that claim. If you can back statement up i would be grateful.

All I am saying is that is not easily verifiable. These people are standing up for something and for some stupid reason only use Facebook. You can do a search of their page and that doesn't pop up. They seem pretty adamant about putting everything on social media and find it very hard to believe they have rescued 30 children and didn't post about or mention it once. Also there should be some sort of news coverage about their achievements at least once. I have looked and searched and as it stands now am calling bullshit on that statement. Hopefully I am wrong but don't give credit when credit isnt due. They were looking for homeless camps came across a strange one thought child trafficking was involved and that was the first time they have been involved in any kind of child trafficking search. Like I said Craig Sawyer has been involved in child trafficking and a lot of people in the beginning were confusing those two people they do look alike kind of.

Also I appreciate you and all the research you do but I like facts and I am very adamant about verifying any claims made by people online so please don't take offense.

I’d like to see that too. There aren’t that many new updates bro. Just be a gent and provide your sources.

You JUST said it can be easily verified. Someone pointed out that no, it can’t be, and now it would take way too long for you to verify it ? Which is it ?

I know which one it is : they haven’t rescued a single child. None. As far as I can tell, there isn’t a single instance where VOP actually “rescued” or saved a child.

Keep trying to make them into something they absolutely aren’t.

And yet you still can’t produce ANY reliable news sources proving your point.

Let me guess , you refuse to provide them now because you don’t have to prove anything to an ignorant shill like me ? You definitely have them and could but nah, not worth it. ;-)

Who is texting in that screenshot? Why should we take their word on what they see in a picture over the word of the Medical Examiner who actually got to see and examine the skull?

So I should just take your word for it and trust you/other uninformed people who've merely seen pictures, over the actual expert who examined the skull?

Sounds like feels over reals.

no you should spend 5 fucking minutes informing yourself of visible markers of age in the human skull through google

Instead of coming in here and openly attacking the OP when your only argument is

"golly gee, the police would never mislead us dont be silly!"

If you still want to attack OP come back with pics and debunk the image/explanation in the OP with facts

Because "Trust the Police, Stop theorizing " just makes everyone think you are a fucking shill

Not that I think that of course so this is in no way an accusation

Okay, so feels before reals, got it. Who needs facts or years of training when you can just google shit, amirite?

I've looked at the picture and it doesn't seem like a child to me, for a variety of reasons that have been explained elsewhere. If you think it does, fine, but when people who are trained in this area (some of whom have posted on this very sub and have agreed with the ME) use evidence to back up their 'adult' claim, that means more to me than random people processing the picture, since they likely know little about how to identify the age of a skull.

You are speaking of "facts" but talking about how you FEEL the skull looks. It couldn't be a much more obvious example of Feels Before Reals, sorry.

You still never answered his question

Dont bother with him, hes clearly exactly what I did not accuse him of being

Awesome post! Could we have more of that attitude please? It’s a conspiracy subreddit. Who wants people sitting around agreeing with each other. People are going to challenge what you say and you will be forced to do more research. This is a good thing.

Personally I’m incredibly sceptical and nothing you have posted has convinced me. But I’m enjoying the read and your research. Keep it up mate. Great to see your passion.

To be fair the screen shot you linked looks intentionally edited to sway opinions, between the child, young adult, and adult skull, the only one that isn’t obstructed by the arrow boxes at all is... surprise surprise the child skull, and the funny thing is we didn’t even need the arrow boxes at all, the text above it is literally explaining the reasoning on why that person felt it was most likely a child skull, and fortunately for me I just so happen to have a head permanently attached to my neck, so Im fairly knowledgeable on where the various parts of the skull happen to be, i really don’t need arrows to show me where the eyes or nose would be on a skull....

it just seems intentionally designed to prime the reader with what the author wants the reader to be thinking and then edited to control the readers focus/ ability to come to any conclusion except what’s being presented to them.....

I’m not trying to discredit the claim you’re making but shit like that is huge red flag to me, “compare this skull to these other 3 skulls, doesn’t it mostly match the only one skull I didn’t cover up with arrows!?” How are we suppose to know if we can’t clearly compare it to all three....

Sorry I didn’t mean to imply you personally edited it that way, I just meant who ever did edit it that way probably did it that way for a reason

Hey good news. An osteologist has posted in this thread and has sourced material that points to this being an adult skull. Any chance you could reply with the sources you used to come to your conclusion? At the moment he pretty much destroys your entire argument. It’s going to be pretty cool if a couple of hours on google is going to show how easy osteology is!

You are the one displaying feels before reals.

You instantly trust authority because you want to.

And if there is photographic evidence you intentionally do not give yourself the tools to understand it

If this guy isn't a paid troll, then he's buying kids himself.

Yeah, that’s totally not a false dilemma.

It seems you have no intention of learning anything and your only goal here is derailing discussion.

List those markers in your own words and explain how they apply to this skull.

"waste your time so I can intentionally twist whatever you say"

"Just take my word for it"

"Just believe the police"

I’m not listing to the police. But I will listen to a osteologist.

Is there a better picture of this "childs skull"? Cause that picture you want us to look at for "visible markers of age" doesn't look like a skull of someone 10 or younger. Possibly below 18, but for sure not younger than 10 based on the one picture given here and listed as "proof".

https://www.google.com/search?q=childs+skull+with+teeth&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi1h9y3oc_bAhUHB3wKHRQ2AQ0Q_AUICygC&biw=1620&bih=954

Removed. Rule 10.

Dat appeal to authority

So, just believe everyone then?

OP appeals to authority as well. The authority of a random person with no relevant credentials.

Regardless, the astroturfing on these threads is pretty alarming

"astroturfing" = waah someone doesn't agree with me

No lots of time I do agree with them. Just don’t like astroturfing

"We should be asking why this area has not been secured years ago and why the agencies have allowed this to continue to happen on our soil. Sex Trafficking is at $150B."

You've asked and answered your own question....

Maybe because it's a desert? Using words like allow is adding drama to a bad situation. The Arizona border is near 400 miles long. mostly dessert. The whole border is around 1,954 miles. Most of that 150B you talk about isn't sneaking over the border. or the AZ border. The 150b was estimate for forced labor not sex trade.

I feel this is bad enough without using fake news.

This plus the money (CEMEX grants) are too much for me to ignore

Sorry I must have missed it but what grants do you speak of? Are you talking about the links to CF?

So much disinfo on this godamn skull. I'm not trusting both sides.

Same, not immediately anyway.

Love the name btw

You don’t have to trust anyone... Trust yourself

No.. that’s the problem with this. You (and me) are not qualified to assess the age of skulls. It’s not a matter of trust but of experience and scientific facts.

Thank you!! OP goes on and on in this thread about critical thinking, and willfully overlooks that their info isn't cited by anyone who might know anything on the matter. If this is critical thinking in this sub, we're fucked.

Op is worried about feelsies and not realsies

Redditor: "What is this?"

Some Expert Redditor seconds later: "Why that's a orange death beetle from the northern coast of the westernmost of the Hawaiian Islands..."

I just feel like it should be incredibly easy for someone to chime in and go "Hi, I'm a forensic pathologist/osteologist/etc., I can absolutely confirm that this is a ___'s skull." and the mods could confirm their credentials. We're sitting on this mountain of human intellectual capital and all standing around guessing and being dismissive of each other like idiots.

And actually, given the relative ease at which this could be discredited, I'm more and more hesitant to believe this aspect. If there was never a picture of it, we could always wonder and the person who examined it might not have to worry about any real scrutiny, but it's right there. If it was a cover-up, I would assume they would have embraced it and pushed the trafficking story and blamed it on illegals bringing their kids on the dangerous trip. Maybe miraculously catching a few coyotes pretty quickly. Why create a problem by claiming it's an adult's skull when there are tens if not hundreds of thousands of people who could see through the obvious lie?

Keep posting brother, you're doing good work here

Oh god!! Not sure what to think about them showing up. They will probably start examining every rock they come across and assume it's evidence. "You see this stone has been laying here for years and was pointing north which means Donald is the second coming of Jesus Christ.

I know. Sometimes it's good to crack jokes about things otherwise they get to be a little to serious for me at least.

I just kinda got into Q. People are pretty fanatical about it. I am pretty convinced it is an insider. Much easier to not try and cypher everything that is going to happen and just patiently wait to see.

Maybe we don’t hear about it because a significant portion of our wealthiest citizens, television personalities politicians, police and military are all heavily involved...

Like we’ve been saying forever.

There’s also an adult tooth that dropped or erupted yet. It’s probably around 12 years old.

$150Billion industry and they can afford a rape van? That was just a weirdo encampment. Maybe one person (panty sniffer) or a poor family on meth.

Some traffickers do have vans and cross the border using roads. Others walk through the desert and stop at waypoints asking the way until they're in the country and can make their US connection. The people doing the hardest and most dangerous low-level, hands-on work get paid the least, kind of like drug trafficking.

After they kidnap the actual kids I doubt they go on foot. Like I said. I live near the Mexican border so I see this stuff first hand. Not thru youtube. Can you say the same? My Wife is Mexican and American. She has dual citizenship. Drug trafficking is different than human trafficking. Drugs don't sprout feet and try to escape or grow a mouth and scream for help. I know someone who had their 5 year old Son murdered and stuffed full of cocaine. They found him in a VAN on the border.

I keep my personal info out of this account, but I have a lot of of professional knowledge in this area.

There are tend of thousands of unaccompanied minors who cross into the US. Most cross willingly, at least at first. Often they are systematically broken down during the trafficking process. They people who traffick are pros. The victims don't have to be dragged kicking and screaming.

According to UNICEF, along the borders of the United States and Mexico, at least 16,000 children are victims of child trafficking for sexual purposes.

Trafficking happens between Central American countries as well, and the most attractive / compliant / valuable are often sent to the US where they fetch the highest price. They cross in a variety of ways, as noted. This includes the desert border.

Many girls are lured to Mexico with the promise of work, usually in domestic labour or as baby-sitters. In 2000, a group of approximately 400 girls from Honduras aged 10 to 16 were repatriated.

If you'd like to know more from the experts, here's a good source of facts. http://www.ecpat.org/wp-content/uploads/legacy/Factsheet_Mexico.pdf

Bravo u/Spiritual_War !!! Over target, downvotes incoming. So obvious.

A Border Agent was just shot down by Tucson...

Tons going on! Thanks for the posts. When i saw that skull the other day i knew shit was getting real down there...

Can you link?

I am absolutely sick to the back teeth with this skull. I am a trained osteologist and the image you have provided is quite frankly, total fabricated garbage (that’s putting it nicely) and utterly insulting to both the people reading this and to the individual who’s remains you continuously desecrate. It’s almost midnight where I am so it won’t be now, but if anyone is interested I can provide a more detailed and cited comment tomorrow morning on just how shit that picture actually is.

However, just by looking with my very tired and pissed off eyes I can see no metopic suture (also known as frontal suture). According to Schaefer et al (2009) this suture disappears between 2-4 years of age. However, the metopic sutures can persist into adulthood (known as metopism) and the prevalence of this varies between ethnographic groups (see Kumar and Rajahekar 2015, Wadekar et al 2014). However, we do not use this as an age indicator for reasons I have described above (unless the osteologist prefers Buikstra and Ubelaker 1984), instead we prefer to use a combination of dental eruption (I use miles 1963 and the revised edition) which would be the most likely event here; the pubic symphyseal surface (Todd 1920, Katz and Suchey 1986, Suchey et al 1988), the auricular surface (Lovejoy et al 1985, Buckberry and Chamberlin 2002), epiphyseal fusion (for instance Singh et al 2013 and the ischial tuberosity) and sternal rib end ageing (Iscan et al 1984, 1993).

For all purpose fantastic osteology advice please grab yourselves a copy of The human bone manual by White and Folkens (2005) or Human Osteology 3rd edition by Black, White and Folkens (2011). I’m happy to elaborate on any of my comments in the morning. A no, a trained, responsible osteologist would never claim to be able to provide an accurate age assessment based on just a picture. Now do me a favour and stop posting this crap.

FINALLY !!! Thank you for reading this and commenting. It has been so damn frustrating the past week having these idiots come on here and try to analyze the skull based on some shitty picture. One guy said that his only training was a short course in wilderness rescue yet he knew for a fact that this was a child skull and gave some NCIS / Bones reasonings for it.

What’s sad though is your post doesn’t fit into their narrative like all the other “experts” do so it will get ignored. But the FB post from some kid who spent 5 mins googling will continue to get passed off as fact.

Is the human skull human though? It’s worse if it’s a kid but bad either way

Human skulls are always human. Maybe you should have asked if the skull was a human skull or not.

I was being facetious. People downplaying the discovery of a human skull

It wasn’t the same guy who talked about how the skull was not only a child’s skull, but had been decapitated and before that, suffered blunt force trauma to the skull from a boot was it? I tried very nicely to point out that his proof of ‘head trauma’ -what he described as a crack- was the squamous suture. Oh and the mandible had been removed to prevent identification apparently? I wrote out a fairly detailed answer, albeit skimping on the citations. Unsurprisingly he never answered me and deleted half of his comments.

Hahaha yep, he was the one. All his training was from that wilderness emt class.

Was that the 4 week class?

I'm tagging you as something to remember you know your shit. What's a funny tag to remind me of that?

Man a "debunker" and then the predictable "thank you!" Upvoted to the top - how organic.

So nothing about the content of his post?

Honestly, the fact that you think I’ve been planted or this was organised really makes my day. I’m just giving my educated, professional opinion so people can make an informed choice. I’m hardly a ‘debunker’. It’s a human skull. I just disagree with the hysterical speculation that it’s a child (not that I feel comfortable full-stop giving an assessment via one crappy picture).

I really wanna bring attention to the irony of a sub that talks about refusing to take things at face value, and then goes ahead and accepts -without any form of discussion- a crappy text by someone with no qualifications or citations in something as sensitive as human remains.

What makes you so angry? That’s a strange response.

Can you ELI5

He went to bed so I will paraphrase for you:

"This proof is utter BS. Source-I do this shit for a living"

I don’t think that’s quite right. Sounds like he angrily said it could be a child’s skull but we can’t tell

And if that is what he said, how is "could be" any sort of proof like OP claimed?

That’s ok. Then we keep investigating

Over 10 upvotes an hour for this? Wtf

It’s a well written response by a professional in the field. It provides links to suggested reading materials so you can make your own call.

Oh yeah totally organic

So what’s wrong with the content of the post?

Think he's suggesting we're all shills. Are we Deep State or Antifa? I get confused.

Next he will be going through my post history to show how I work for shareblue. I hope he does. There’s some sweet warhammer painting in there.

Still find it strange that people do this. Presumably the downvotes are supposed to hurt. I used to get a certain satisfaction from it; I mean, nothing says you've won the argument better than an empty in box and a noticeable drop in karma.

But the idea of someone spending precious moments of life doing something so petty and bitter - the helpless futility of it makes me sad.

Honestly if you are up for it I would love to hear your opinions. Genuinely. What part of what I said is ‘what the fuck’? Do you disagree with some of it or all of it?

Someone please teach me how to follow a comment thread.

remind me in 24 hours

I wonder what /u/spiritual_war has to say about this?

Nothing at all. Op wants to disinform and convince people to trust what they feel

Yeh, I'm not sure we have very much to say to each other unless a retraction of this garbage and an apology to this sub is coming. I don't particularly like conversing with people who take the opinions of silly little twats on text messages above the opinions of people who spend their whole lives, and thousands of pounds to study, care for, and reunite human remains. Why did I even bother going back to university three times when I could have just Google a picture of a skull and gone 'its head is flatter and its eyes are bigger?'. SCIENCE! Ugh, I should think about getting a refund...

And people like you are the problem with conspiracies and this sub. Instead of keeping the "open mind" that conspiracies supposedly run on, you get info that doesn't fit your narrative and you bitch about it, then ignore it, move on and continue spewing your BS. Instead you should be referencing all the citations you were given and go over those. If you find that those are wrong, submit evidence as to why they are. But you wont do any of that after ignoring and spewing more shit. You don't want a discussion. You want an echo chamber of false info.

BTW, how does a 4 day old account with no posting history get accepted to bypass the 2 month old account rule? Hell you're still under the 2 month rule and you have no flair to warn people.

BTW, how does a 4 day old account with no posting history get accepted to bypass the 2 month old account rule?

Your first post here was when your account was 4 days old.

https://old.reddit.com/r/conspiracy/comments/8im3cl/megalist_of_links_pertaining_to_corrupted_science/

Account created 5/7/18. Submission that wasn't deleted for 2 month account age 5/11/18 = 4 day old account.

Hell you're still under the 2 month rule and you have no flair to warn people.

Sill under 2 month old account.

I checked your comment history cause I was trying to see why a less than 2 month old account was allowed to post here and bypass the 2 month old account rule. I see you had no posting history at all anywhere expect one submission in r/gardening and that was the day before you made a massive post in this sub.

So why is there a 2 month old account rule? The mods only letting discussion happen they want is the answer.

Well the mods had to approve you to comment.

Nope. Pretty much what I figured. An alt account of some sort.

Not going to answer when offering to?

Ya. I got the notification...

You spew bullshit. Don't worry. People are waking up to it

We come to costo

Oh damn lol I thought I was replying to another post haha. I'm sorry

That first link isn't proof at all.

I love how you tell people there is organized crime and they tell you conspiracys are for retards.

I just wonder if the world has been like this, forever. Dont know shit that is going on around you.

Any connection here to what is currently happening at the border with the new policy of forcibly removing children from parents?

I live here and nobody knows about this. Who is keeping this hidden from the public?

Someone mentioned this on pol earlier, what do you make of this:

https://archive.4plebs.org/pol/thread/116357459/#116357459

Anonymous ID:CieZIZCC Sun 12 Mar 2017 16:06:43 No. 116360099 Report

Quoted By: >>116360471 >>116363512 >>116363727 >>116364527 >>116365018 >>116366702 >>116370896 >>116375128,1 >>116375128,11 >>116375128,2 >>116375128,3

>>116357459
The biggest happening will be #tucsongate when J Rothschild/ tucson mayor is outed for trafficking kids with the help of ((Casa de los Ninos)) and the Clinton foundation. This is The Lead and The Pedogate Happening of 2017. You're welcome and praise kek!

It seems that your comment contains 1 or more links that are hard to tap for mobile users. I will extend those so they're easier for our sausage fingers to click!

Here is link number 1 - Previous text "No."

^{Please PM /u/eganwall with issues or feedback! | Delete}

Ok. You happened to hit upon one if my areas of expertise. I've studied anatomy as I am a liscense medical professional. And I can tell you that the analysis of the skull in OPs post is absolute bullshit. Sorry man, but children having more pronounced foreheads and eye shape is all just subjective. That's not how you identify a skull. I don't know who made that graphic or where you got it, but it's either disinfo or just outright propaganda.

The image said nothing of sutures or dentition. And I'm not 100% sure, but a quick Google search will probably tell you those are both important to identification. This shit about eye shape and forehead size and how smooth or not smooth it is is all just made up idiocy. You can't go around waving it around as proof of anything.

I don't know why you accepted this as gospel truth when you saw it, but at least do a Google search before you post shit like this. I get it. You REALLY want this to be a child skull because it will then validate all your time and effort. But you're basing it all on made up science and feels.

I love how so many assume cartel. Lots of people cross with a coyote. These are regular people who oknow their way across the border and have a way with bribing

In the spirit of not being the dick who promises to deliver and never does, I wanted to elaborate on my comment that I posted last night. Please take any new dates and the genuine dates, I was fucking knackered last night. I’m not sure any of you wanted more but just in case you did or thought I was a lying tosser, I thought I’d shove it here. First off though:

1. I cannot list every osteological technique that's ever been invented/trialled. There are literally hundreds of accurate, inaccurate, convoluted, mathematical, simple, quick and extremely difficult techniques and more are proposed every year.
2. There is going to be a certain amount of repetition from my previous comment, because we tend to use a core set of techniques each and every time.
3. Old does not mean irrelevant. Many of the papers I am about to list are years, if not decades old. Sometimes and oldie is a goodie.
4. When I say 'I', 'me', 'we' or 'us' I am mean just that. This is how my unit conducts an osteological assessment and there is bound to be some variation between institutions and without a doubt between countries, particularly Britain and the USA. Nobody is wrong, its just different. We argue over this stuff all the time. It is a good thing.
5. I am bound to disappoint someone reading this who either wants it to be more ELI5 or more in depth, I cannot please everyone. I am not trying to be patronising or arrogant. I also don't really know what you guys wanted so I've included a little bit of everything.

If you are genuinely interested in reading about osteology then I recommend The Human Bone Manual by White and Folkens (2005) or Human Osteology by White, Black and Folkens (2011), and specifically for juvenile osteology, read Juvenile Osteology: A field manual by Scheuer and Black (2008) and Developmental Juvenile Osteology by Cunningham and Scheuer (2000). Journals are also a good place to start, look out for The International Journal of Osteoarchaeology or the International Journal of Palaeopathology.

On to the task at hand. First off, when producing an osteological assessment of human remains we typically attempt to determine four things. Biological sex, age, stature and ethnicity. Contrary to popular belief we do not jump to figuring out how somebody died, unless it is immediately obvious or explicitly requested. However, we are all trained to do so, and for many of us palaeopathology (study of past disease in human remains, sometimes called a subset of bioarchaeology) and trauma studies are our PhD speciality. As I don't think anyone is interested in the ethnicity of the Cranium (the proper terminology as it has no mandible) I wont bother to detail this process unties anyone is incredibly interested. Stature cannot be estimated because it requires elements from the appendicular skeleton (Trotter and Glesser 1952, 1958) which we are missing. Nobody seems to be fighting about biological sex yet either.

Calculating Age : Since this seems to be the biggest sticking point with this skull, lets start here. In the case of only having a cranium, the osteologist would consider dental eruption as a key indicator of age. Dental development follows a typical pattern and can be divided into convenient stages, with the development of permanent dentition covering birth to approximately 12 years of age (Lewis and Flavel 2006). According to Mincer et al (1993) and Scheuer and Black (2000) it is the only reliable system applicable when estimating the age of an individual prior to adulthood. White and Folkens (2005) have identified four key stages of tooth eruption, with teeth moving from deciduous to permanent dentition, ending at approximately 18 years old with the eruption of the third molar, although this is highly variable (Hillson 1996). Ubelaker (1989) has created an in depth diagram of dental eruption stages for a better visual grip of what we are talking about, as has AlQahtani (2008) known as ‘The Atlas of tooth development and eruption’. Ball park, you should expect to see permanent canines, premolars and second molars between the age of 10 and 12. A forensic odontologist would be responsible for deciding an exact age at death in forensic cases but for those which are archaeological, Miles (1962, 1863, 2001) and Brothwell (1981) are used, although these are based on the level of tooth wear and not eruption stages. Without inspecting the cranium or obtaining proper pictures of the dentition, it is impossible to make an assessment for age based on dentition.

Age can be potentially estimated using cranial suture closure, although there is such an enormous amount of variability in suture pattern closure that it has a reduced value (Masset 1989) and as previously discussed it can also be affected by ethnographic background (Kumar and Rajahekar 2015; Wadekar et al 2014). Buiskstra and Ubelaker (1994) produced 'Standards for data collection from human skeletal remains' and offered an amalgamation of ideas from Todd and Lyon (1924, 1925 various) Mann et al (1987) and Meindl and Lovejoy (1985) to create their version of recording suture closure. The osteologist is asked to record 10 ectocranial, 4 palatal and endocranial sutures, which must be scored between blank (unobservable) to 1 (open) 2 minimal closure) 3 (significant closure) to 4 (complete obliteration), and at least 1 cm of suture for each measurement must be observable. A composite score is then recorded, which correlates to young adult (typically between 20-34 although Meindl and Lovejoy 1985 record a potential age of 15), middle adult (35-49) and old adult (50+). Although the above picture appears to show an obliterated metopic suture suggesting this individual is over 4 years (Schaefer et al 2009) it is entirely possible for an adult to suffer from persistent metopic suture (metopism). Because of this variability, Key et al (1994) claims negative closure (of sutures) cannot be used solely as an age indicator at all. Likewise, a single suture cannot be assessed in isolation, so again, a proper assessment of the cranium is required. As you can image, this type of complex and lengthy assessment cannot be done via a photograph of this quality.

Unfortunately, most of the methods we use to assign age to a skeleton involve the appendicular skeleton which is missing in this situation. With the rest of the skeleton, we would typically record observations of the pitting, bony nodules and grooves on the pubic symphysis surface (Todd 1920) and assign each written description to a phase accompanied by an age (Phase 1 is between 18-19 years, Phase 2 is 20-21, all the way to phase 10 which is the last and is listed as 50+). McKern and Stewart (1957) applied this to war casualties and simplified this process by providing pictures to accompany each phase. Bare in mind, both Todd (1920) and McKern and Stewart only gathered their data from deceased men. Katz and Suchey (1986), Suchey et al (1986), and most notably Brooks and Suchey (1990) also contributed to the same study of the pubic symphyseal surface but provided female, as well as male, illustrations and descriptions, this time with only 6 phases to pick from. It is also the favourite to use in cases when the skeletal material is suspected to be of a young adult, as it seem to have a higher rate of accuracy. Another observation is recorded for the auricular surface of the ilium, including granularity, billowing, lipping and porosity. The standard guide for this was created by Lovejoy et al (1985), with 8 phases each with a corresponding age, covering ages 20-60+. Buckberry and Chamberlin (2002) revised the technique to score 5 characteristics individually, and is more accurate on individuals believed to be between 50-69 (White et al 2011). I will even admit it has extremely broad age ranges (for instance a composite score of 9/10 is anything between 29-82 years old). There isn't much to say about this one, but another popular age determination method is analysing the changes at the costochondral junction of the 3rd , 4th of 5th sternal rib ends (Iscan et al 1984, 1986) and assigning each of these to a stage between 0-8 which corresponds to an age. The authors claim it is applicable to all three ribs but it was formulated on the 4th only.

Lastly, epiphyseal fusion is usually the primary indicator, as it can provide a relatively narrow age range in comparison to the other methods I have described. If the iliac crest and medial clavicle are intact they can be analysed using the combination method by Webb and Suchey (1985). Vallois (1960) provides a chronology of ossification and fusion of epiphyses in Europeans but analysed them collectively rather than by sex. As a quick run down, the scapula fuses between 19-21 in females, the distal end of the humerus 14-17, the proximal end of the tibia and the head and distal end of the femur also fuses between 15-19 years (all ages are provided for females and by Ferembach et al 1980, there are also male estimations but I have none to hand). The method of Vertebral union can provide an accuracy of up to 99% using a picture scoring system and an acceptable age range of 2.5 years (Albert and Maples). Swartz (1995) has fusion ages for the vertebral rib ends which will age you below 25, and the 2nd and 3rd sternebrae typically unite between puberty and 25. 1/2

As you can see, there is no shortage of epiphyseal data, you just have to record what skeletal elements you do and do not have, and keep in mind any expectation of biological sex and these will change which method you can use and it’s accuracy. Anyway, back to the skull at hand. So by now you can guess that I cannot work comfortably without seeing clear photographs of the skull, to access either the dental eruption or suture closure. I don't have any of the axial or appendicular skeleton, so that rules that out. Now, as for that text message. Geez, I would be out of a job if we could all just look at a skeleton and say 'Gosh, its eyes are so big, it must be a child'. Lets go through the numbers:

1.True, a child's eyes are disproportionately large, but that's because we are born with eyes already the size they will be when we are adults; its also an evolutionary advantage which promotes care giving and protection (see Kringlebach et al 2016 'On cuteness').The shape of the eyes are err, distinctly 'eye' shaped in both pictures. Its funny how a picture can look different when shot from different angles?

2.This is called morphological variation, and is natural in the human skeleton. The shape of your skull varies due to a number of factors including diet, disease, lifestyle, biological sex, geographical location and ethic group (see any of the main textbooks I have quoted). Age has a lot to do with it, adolescent boys tend to have gracile, more feminine features and older females can take on the robust sexually dimorphic traits of men (Walker 1995, 2008). Infant/adolescent skulls can be more bulbous, but then I've seen this in adult and elderly remains too. It means absolutely nothing and has never been used as an indicator of age.

3.Again, your going to have to take my word on this. This is not a trait exclusive to infants/adolescents. This is nice, wholesome variation and is totally natural.

4.'The eye brow region', also known as the glabella or supra-orbital ridge is a sexually dimorphic trait as described by Bruiskstra and Ubelaker (1994), Acsadi and Nemeskeri (1970), White et al (2011), White and Folkens (2005) and Walker (1995, 2008). I really don't know what to say about the 'closer together/further apart' thing other than its just crap. It has nothing to do with age. Sorry.

TLDR: what I’m badly trying to say is that ageing a skeleton is fucking hard work, it’s a set of very simplex observations that cannot be done in the way that people in this post and others have flippantly described. We can age isolated cranium, but not without seeing the dentition, being highly experienced and having access to detailed photographs and time. It is unprofessional and offensive to guess when it comes to human remains. In my professional opinion, given everything I have described and my own person opinions, if the ME has told you this skull belongs to an adult then trust me that they have worked very hard to be 100% sure, within their capability as a human being. We do not make decisions lightly or in haste. If there's anything I can elaborate on or have left out just give me a shout. Sorry for the wall of text. Thanks.

Yeh, I’m kinda starting to feel like a right little shit now. It wasn’t my intention to derail your post the way I have done. You’re just posting about something you are passionate about and this is the best place to do it. Sorry.

Ah fuck em, I was always called a freak and a weirdow for not having typical girly interests. I loved bones, death, conspiracies, aliens, the whole lot. If I had listened I would never have found my career and I’d be stuck as some mindless, faceless pawn in an office. It’s our passions that make us a person.

no you should spend 5 fucking minutes informing yourself of visible markers of age in the human skull through google

Instead of coming in here and openly attacking the OP when your only argument is

"golly gee, the police would never mislead us dont be silly!"

If you still want to attack OP come back with pics and debunk the image/explanation in the OP with facts

Because "Trust the Police, Stop theorizing " just makes everyone think you are a fucking shill

Not that I think that of course so this is in no way an accusation

Yeah man I'm here for you.

FINALLY !!! Thank you for reading this and commenting. It has been so damn frustrating the past week having these idiots come on here and try to analyze the skull based on some shitty picture. One guy said that his only training was a short course in wilderness rescue yet he knew for a fact that this was a child skull and gave some NCIS / Bones reasonings for it.

What’s sad though is your post doesn’t fit into their narrative like all the other “experts” do so it will get ignored. But the FB post from some kid who spent 5 mins googling will continue to get passed off as fact.

What makes you so angry? That’s a strange response.

Can you ELI5

Over 10 upvotes an hour for this? Wtf

remind me in 24 hours

So what’s wrong with the content of the post?

I wonder what /u/spiritual_war has to say about this?

Was that the 4 week class?