Workers aren’t encouraged to work harder to increase tax revenue, it’s to increase corporate profit.

It blows my mind how easily people latch onto blaming the government. They think they're awake, but they don't even know what plantation they're on, much less who governs it. I don't see why it's so hard to understand, either. Pretty much all throughout history governments have concerned themselves with protecting the landed and privileged classes. Today capitalists are accumulating ludicrously insane levels of capital, and individual corporations are assuming control over ridiculous swathes of our entertainment, education, and general consumer experience and day to day lives. These same capitalist and corporations are the ones who are flooding money into our political system, buying legislation and legislators, favorable "Justice" decisions from the courts, whatever they can afford and everything is for sale.

But when you suggest that it is the ownership of capital, the foundation of the capitalists' power and that which allows all of this to occur, you know- capitalism which is primarily responsible for this state of affairs, particularly in this sub... even in threads bitching about the effects of capital accumulation... dozens jump to defend that system of property ownership. Maybe they like to think they'll own a plantation of their own one day, best not to change the system...

Oh wait I just remembered why it's so hard for people to accept the truth, they tell themselves it's the work of Bad Capitalists who can only do Bad Capitalism because Government. Sigh.

Anyway, just going to end this rant with my continuous reminder that Libertarian Socialism is a thing , and that no, it is not an oxymoron, and that the usage of the word libertarian in this political context predates the modern American usage by about a good hundred years. Turns out OG libertarians were leftists and communists, although I guess it's kind of fitting that anarcho-capitalists have been sold a lie on that, el oh el.

jesus i actually sat and read through that wiki and you might as well have said you invented an economic system ran by unicorns

ok guys here is the plan- we will have a direct democracy and everyone will share in the labor and goods, oh and we won't have any centralized authority to regulate the agreements or really enforce anything, because even social democracy is to much in this model- oh and its all based on the voluntary surrender to the groups of basically and profit model, but don't worry! we will totally be competitive with the other places that don't follow this model and no one will ever try to game the system

just so stupid

I live in china, its a communist shit hole but it has become better from capitalism because now its a shit hole where no one is starving to death and LITERALLY eating each other

we are pretty much stuck with a for profit economic model because of our technological advancements- at this point either hope for UBI or better efficiency through automation to make sure as we enter more inequality that it does not matter because our basic needs will continue to become more and more affordable and easier to access- which has been 100% true for food, water, electric ect via capitalism

Capitalism did China so many favors during those centuries of imperialism lmao

The libertarian socialism wiki is a general primer for people who think socialism = marxism, genius. The workers of Revolutionary Catalonia implemented anarcho-syndicalism fairly successfully until lol woops torn apart between capitalist backed fascists and the marxists.

Anyway, I dunno why I brought up catalonia because I guess it being a fairy tale system it never happened. Or maybe you're just a condescending and ignorant prick who's somehow been exposed to enough capitalist propaganda that he truly believes that he can only avoid starvation thanks to his beloved neo-feudal lords, and truly there are no other factors. If they weren't allowed their billions in assets the farmers suddenly would be unable to farm, the truckers drive, and so on. Inventions will never occur. How gracious of them to allow you to eat, just as they allow you to work for them...

oh yeah, chinese peasants had it great in the imperial period, no one was just starving to death

things IMPROVED under the zone of influence period for your average chinese- it wasn't till ww2 and the complete collapse of the country and its infrastructure did they go communist- which was much much worse then under the democratic regime- 100 million people died

you just can compare the histories of taiwan and the mainland, or just look at how HK had more wealth and freedom for its people- the main land though HK was going to take over the whole country because they had so much more money

then they continued to embrace more capitalism and avoid a collapse and improve ways of life

but yes, people do have to still to work, which i understand is something you really don't like

Corruption exists in our existing system, therefore let's adopt a proven failed system and ban people from owning a chicken or cow for sustenance.

Why not just target the corruption instead of ignoring it while fretting endlessly about labels and such?

Why not just target the corruption instead of ignoring it while fretting endlessly about labels and such?

I hate responding to posts the content of which clearly indicates you won't understand (every single person I've encountered who says anything about "going on about labels" has had fuck all understanding of- or desire to understand- any of the ideologies or philosophies discussed), but here I go.

Targeting the corruption of society is the whole fucking point of libertarian socialism. Corruption is allowed by the non transparent, undemocratic accumulation of power. It's not "because government," and diminishing the power of government will only empower private tyrants. Which, again, this sub seems to understand very well given their constant complaining about Google or camera surveillance in stores or media consolidation or any number of other things private companies are always going to do because surprise it's fucking profitable, especially when piping that hot data to an intelligence apparatus that ensures your politicians keep on winning.

Sure, I used to be a liberal who thought you could just try to restrain the government as best you can while passing smart regulations to curb the abuse of moneyed interests. But that's absurdly ignorant of the reality with which we are faced. The monopolies and oligarchs were defeated before, and what happened? A slow crawl, a gradual accumulation and building of power that allowed the entire political system to once again be ensnared by the wealthy and transnational corporate interests... and working class living standards coincidentally have declined non stop ever since. Oh, I guess some of you are easily confused by technological progress and think "well we've got phones now!" is somehow enough points to capitalism to outweigh so many millions living as chattel slaves, with a quality of life including "benefits" like health insurance with a $7500 deductible that doesn't even cover prescription drugs.

Anyway , since people here rarely bother to read more than a paragraph I hope you'll choose this one, because my main point is that libertarian socialism seeks to decentralize both capitalist authority, which stems from their control of the means of production ( including but not limited to the media and means of education- try thinking about that ) and their utilization of such to produce not goods which are necessarily needed for life and comfort but that which brings them the most profit and thus further power and influence, as well as to decentralize government influence .

I'm pointing this out because your callous dismissal of "labels" is directly responsible for the incredible ignorance in your mock quote. Until you take it upon yourself to understand simple, basic things, such as the fact that anarcho-syndicalism (a form of libertarian socialism. Really I could simply say "all other forms of socialism") and Marxism-Leninism derived socialism are completely antithetical in many respects, and therefore cannot together constitute a singular "failed system" (that being whatever caricature of "socialism" you've got in your head for the word, I guess), it's really pointless to discuss anything with you at all.

Tl;dr words matter, try learning what they mean, and you can't create a system free of corruption without examining why systems become corrupt

I expect dumb arguments so >disable inbox replies

So you think banning people from owning a cow and some hens, or a plot of land for a garden, is the solution to corruption?

No, that's not what I think, that is in nothing that I've said, and that is not the essence of socialism. That's your own made up image of what it must look like despite not knowing enough to distinguish between two socialist ideologies despite their being nearly opposite in terms of authoritarianism.

I think that our political structure should be decentralized and democratized so that we all have an actual say in our political society. No 750k voters per rep, separated from the people by a political party funded by those with the property and means to buy influence. A potential solution is Parpolity, once advocated by Reddit's own Aaron Swartz. It is essentially the use of exponents and nested councils of fifty members to see all citizens represented in only five or so tiers of councils. 50/1 seems like it might give you an actual voice...

I think that we should all have a say in our economic life as well. The means of production should be owned and managed by the ones making use of them and the communities in which they are located. The workers should have the right to direct their activities and management and should have full ownership of the value of their labor (which is, even in pro-capitalist theory, never the case under an owner).

This is all very basic, but I'm not going to write much more for you to scoff at and disregard without thought.

P.s. leave it to a capitalist defense drone to reduce the topic to "owning a cow and some hens" when here in the real world we're witnessing levels of capital accumulation and market consolidation not seen since before the great depression. Disney buying all of Fox's IP = / = "owning a cow"

P.p.s. personal property and private property aren't the same thing anyway but again that requires you to understand the importance of the meaning of words for it to matter... dang "labels"

Dozens jump to defend that system of property ownership. Maybe they like to think they'll own a plantation of their own one day, best not to change the system.

You didn't say means of production, you said property ownership. So, what, you can't own anything more than a house and a car? How about owning a farm?

Generally, people of good faith who want to help society will focus on the real problems of corruption we see today, not obfuscating and obsessing over hypothetical fantasy world details of how many people each mini dictator gets to control.

I love people who think they're smart and think they've got me in some kinda gotcha that only displays their ignorance and unwillingness to learn. I'm not going to keep arguing with you on this stupid strawman bullshit just because you don't seem to want to understand that personal property and private property are not the same thing and when one is speaking of "private property" or capitalism as a "system of property ownership" they're not talking about you owning a fucking chicken. Period.

So, what, you can't own anything more than a house and a car? How about owning a farm?

Sigh

Generally, people of good faith who want to help society will focus on the real problems of corruption we see today, not obfuscating and obsessing over hypothetical fantasy world details of how many people each mini dictator gets to control.

Lmfao a decentralized, explicitly anti-authoritarian system of direct democracy = mini dictatorship. Anarchic, direct democracy is dictatorship. Such brilliant political thinking, fucking lol

Generally, people of good faith who want to help society will focus on the real problems of corruption we see today,

Generally, people of good faith who want to help society will be willing to learn and examine the root causes of problems facing society which they wish to solve rather than making emotional and illogical arguments against criticism of that society's prevailing political and economic system. But yeah dude you're right, capitalism has nothing to do with the daily posts I see even on this fucking sub bemoaning the effects of capital accumulation. Sighhhhh

Anyway I'm out of here, later Brickwall

Non-Mobile link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_property

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You can't even answer a simple question about whether individuals would be allowed to own farms and go sell their surplus at a local market.

Your inability or unwillingness to either 1) read or 2) understand very simple sentences is no fault of mine, no matter how you wish it were so.

--> disable inbox replies

hypothetical fantasy world details of how many people each mini dictator gets to control.

That's capitalism, idiot.

The OP called it libertarian socialism. Maybe the two of you can combine your superior intellects and obsess about abstract labels together.

Omg! Another illusion is that only the wealthy can help or change the world.

Was watching something randomly about this football player. The host said, "It is so good he is now in a position to help people."

He was implying that to help others one must be rich or famous.

We can all help others - even the least of us.

Just compare hourly wage to see how wrong you are.

I buy pumps and dumps all day, wealth isn't the best thing to make more wealth knowledge is.

Teach me

wealth isn't the best thing to make more wealth knowledge is.

As long as we adhere to this antiquated Babylonian debt enslavement framework of currency, then the pre-existence of wealth is a surefire way to accrue even more.

True, but you can play there game.

I totally agree with your philosophy...do you have articles related to this? I always think of it like the rabbit in a dog race. Its clearly not a fresh little meat creature you dumb dogs! I was working at a place that portrayed working there as a competition, and one guy always won, every day he worked. He had no extra skills or anything, because this was just dumbass dangerous work that no one has ever trained to become better. I realized corporate could very likely be simply giving this guy every advantage, so everyone else competing would think "maybe if i work harder (at this retarded thankless job) i can be #1 someday..."

Then if you keep exploring this topic, you may notice how alot of people assumed to be "wealthy" are, like, total effing idiots. Yeah, i can find lots of "dumb" poors, but a wealthy flashing all their status symbols and expecting everyone to know the answer to "do you even know who i am???" really makes you appreciate how rare god-given decency is. I am aware of some people with far more substantial checking accounts than mine. They may have several vehicles, properties, and the fawning attention of some local socialites...but none of us has guaranteed security, two sets of genitals for banging more bitches, or the highly skilled anal acuity to batten down 100% of intestinal methane evacuation. It truly astounds how many wealthies believe they have earned/purchased superhuman skills and priveleges

Wait do you mean the stories about a guy getting a break are made up as in fake stories about fake people or they’re promoted by the MSM to bolster support for the economic system, despite most of them being flukes?

Capitalism did China so many favors during those centuries of imperialism lmao

The libertarian socialism wiki is a general primer for people who think socialism = marxism, genius. The workers of Revolutionary Catalonia implemented anarcho-syndicalism fairly successfully until lol woops torn apart between capitalist backed fascists and the marxists.

Anyway, I dunno why I brought up catalonia because I guess it being a fairy tale system it never happened. Or maybe you're just a condescending and ignorant prick who's somehow been exposed to enough capitalist propaganda that he truly believes that he can only avoid starvation thanks to his beloved neo-feudal lords, and truly there are no other factors. If they weren't allowed their billions in assets the farmers suddenly would be unable to farm, the truckers drive, and so on. Inventions will never occur. How gracious of them to allow you to eat, just as they allow you to work for them...