Well, first, that is part of "ghetto" culture, it just happens to be mostly African Americans due to the history of the USA. The elite culture has molded their culture. Maybe if they had REAL jobs, safe neighborhoods, less CIA crack and weapons, theyd find prospect in other work besides gang affiliation
Would killing gang members who brag about murdering a neighbor to their fellow gang members in prison do the job? If it's immoral to kill them, what about turning Africa into a prison colony?
It's a complicated situation, with two ways to look at it. I'll start with yours.
Way 1: it's just their culture, and they need to stop glorifying rappers and violence. This certainly is true to an extent, and good luck finding a way to stop that. At this point, the entertainment industry is fully on board with selling them such a culture, which many are too eager to consume, creating a vicious cycle.
Way 2: it's a result of historic and current systemic issues plaguing the community, which results in a sense of hopelessness, impotence, and anger/hatred that has manifested itself as this ugly cultural thing. Additionally, many were ripped from their traditional African cultures and basically inherited the "white trash" culture of the plantation owners and overseers, then uprooted themselves from that culture and ended up in isolated impoverished and alienating urban ghettos. Given that "head start" (and note they only had full rights about 50 years ago, barely 2 generations), and the major ongoing issues they face the cultural outcome is to be expected.
Just look at one highly important facet: mass incarceration. So the culture breeds illegality, which in turn is reacted against by the mainstream with a mini police state where they are constantly hassled and stopped and ticketed and arrested for minor crimes or just "being black". Of course the criminals are duly processed by the court system, poorly defended and given far less leniency than other races, shuffled into prisons, alienated further from their community and family, then released back into society with no serious attempts by the state to rehabilitate them or make them employable, and now with the scarlet letter of "Felon" on their resumes. If they already weren't products of a godawful school system, itself improverished due to the local nature of school funding, this would seal their fate as "menial laborers" with no real hope of a decent or well paying job.
So helplessness, a feeling of alienation from the mainstream and each other, various poverty feedback loops, impotence to change a system that is bent against them, and basic emotions of anger result. An already impoverished culture in an incredibly toxic and poor environment creates what you have.
Fixing it is not easy. Especially when half the country just blames them for all their problems and wants more of them in jail. This is all ignoring racism.
I believe you make valid points regarding jailing. Obviously throwing people in jail hasn't helped people, improved people, or do me much in preventing crime. I agree that it's a complex situation and I'm not sure the best way to reform and deter crime (not just in Chicago). I agree that schools and funding of schools, particularly in poor neighborhoods, plays a pivotal role in children's lives and the path they end up taking.
Where I disagree is on race(which you you didn't ignore, BTW, it was your main narrative), where I believe poverty plays a bigger role than anything. Yes, its easy to blame race when more blacks are poor, but crime follows poverty and when blacks are statistically more impoverished (yes, likely still a remnant of slavery and segregation, but that's fading) when they are statistically more likely to commit crimes, we blame it on race, rather then poverty? Please. I'm not naive, I understand there is racism out there, I understand some thing do happen due to race, but not EVERYTHING bad that happens to a black persons is because they are black, but that's the narrative people are pushing.
I completely think the opposite, too many people blame race, rather than behaviors, actions, and choices. "I got pulled over for speeding because I'm black!" Well, sure you were going 50 in a 35 zone.... but yah it's cause your black. People don't steal because they are black, people don't murder someone cause they are black, it's cause they make a shit poor decision and yes, there should be consequences. But let's dismiss the fact that there are people out there murdering people on a daily basis, the only reason that's happening is cause of systemic racism... (/s)
Yes, I don't really disagree, but it's a very muddled situation. A lot of blacks also get pulled over for practically any small infraction, then have to pay an exorbitant fine (given their income situation due to poverty). I mean, the average white guy looks at a $250 fine and says, "well that sucks, oh well," whereas an impoverished minority making minimum wage and unable to cover expenses a lot of months looks at that as roughly 20% of his monthly income and often times has trouble coming up with the funds.
Let's not forget there's an awful lot of minor infractions, like a broken tail light, etc, that aren't related to driving at all, and are going to be found on cars where the owner is basically broke and struggling just to pay for gas. Maintenance is "when it stops working I buy a new one off CL." Basically, poverty is being criminalized, and then you have debtors' prisons in parts of the country.
Also, I go 50 in a 35 basically all the time, and I haven't been ticketed in almost a decade (and slid out of some pull-overs just cause the cop was so nice). That said, I drive a new car, am white, and live in an area with few cops. If I did that as a minority in a busted up beater in an urban ghetto where there's a cop every few blocks, I'd be out of a license by now. Is that just racism? No, a lot of it is just the terrain that comes with being a poor minority stuck in a heavily policed urban area.
There is of course this strain among the majority in our society, which you tapped into there, that black people just all need to take personal responsibility. And that is certainly true to an extent, but what needs to be recognized is that when they make the same mistakes as white people, they are punished far more often and more severely (if not solely due to the regressive nature of fines), all while culturally impoverished and with few professional options.
My overriding point is they do not exist in the same legal, economic, social, historical, or cultural framework that most white people do. And while a typical white woman shoplifting (way more common than most think) might rarely get caught and slapped on the wrist, a black man doing the same may likely find himself behind bars for a while, with a theft record since he didn't have a good attorney to get the charges brought down to something that wouldn't make his employment prospects far worse, because "personal responsibility" says the judge.
First, I'd like to say thanks for the well thought response and good dialogue. I can't tell you how often I get backlash (on here and in life) when I don't immediately just agree with someone on a subject such as this. Dialogue and good listening is the best way to open your mind to these types of topics!
Secondly, I actually agree with many of the points you make. Our system is hardly perfect and has its bias'. Confronting these and pushing for improvement and progress is a necessity, but it's always happened, it just doesn't always happen as quickly as some would like.
The only thoughts I'd nit pick on would be just how often and how severely blacks receive different treatment. I'll use getting pulled over by the police as a great example as it's definitely a hot. It tom issue. For starters only about 13% of black people get pulled over compared to 10% of white folks. 3% isn't really as big of a difference and many would expect. To counter that, men get pulled over 12% of the time compared to 8% for women, so if you argue preferential treatments to whites, then you should argue preferential treatment to women, which you'll never hear many liberals ever admit to. To push this further, 60% of blacks get tickets compared to 51% of whites getting ticketed. That's a 9% difference, that's not a huge portion either. This certainly shows some difference, but not the severe difference many people believe and try to push (that's 40% of the time a back person has a confrontation with a cop and doesn't even get s ticket, far from the "every black personal is being hunted down by the cops!" Narrative I often hear from so many. I believe there are many variable to these stats that aren't solely focused on race, but you can't argue race doesn't play some role here.
The last thing I want to say quickly, is that there are so many variables that affect these types of social issues, understanding that race plays a role is important, but also understanding that there are many variables that could affect punishments and fines and charges and just cause a black personal got a bigger fine or a harsher punishments doesn't always mean that the reason was cause they were black.
Sounds a like a pretty loaded question. Why "their" and not "our"? You have already declared them to be apart. from the rest of America, and yet you wonder what they have to do to change?
30 comments
n/a orionquest2016 2017-04-22
Get the CIA to stop trafficking drugs there.
n/a stopreddcensorship 2017-04-22
When has that ever happened? Kidding
n/a heymingming 2017-04-22
And guns
n/a KickedinTheDick 2017-04-22
Well, first, that is part of "ghetto" culture, it just happens to be mostly African Americans due to the history of the USA. The elite culture has molded their culture. Maybe if they had REAL jobs, safe neighborhoods, less CIA crack and weapons, theyd find prospect in other work besides gang affiliation
n/a RememberJohnLang 2017-04-22
everyone wants to make it out of the hood but nobody wants to be like Kendrick.
n/a g3374r2d2 2017-04-22
Kendrick Lamar is not edgy, he just plays one on TV.
n/a RememberJohnLang 2017-04-22
i didn't know that you knew him personally. Tell him that someone from the internet is proud of him.
n/a g3374r2d2 2017-04-22
He's an actor. Keep looking for heroes in a world full of deception.
n/a blakdart 2017-04-22
Would killing gang members who brag about murdering a neighbor to their fellow gang members in prison do the job? If it's immoral to kill them, what about turning Africa into a prison colony?
n/a Pls_PM_me_uranus 2017-04-22
Joy Lane
n/a lotinlif3 2017-04-22
It's the glorification of crime and that lifestyle in the hip hop music, along with the drugs pushed into those communities.
n/a RememberJohnLang 2017-04-22
immortal technique is not black. there are plenty of role models, they just don't get enough spotlight
n/a KickedinTheDick 2017-04-22
Hes mixed. Hes part black
n/a freejosephk 2017-04-22
So you're saying it all started with NWA, and their influence has been so great, that America just can't quit that thug life?
n/a RememberJohnLang 2017-04-22
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPy2pZU52Pg
n/a joe_jaywalker 2017-04-22
It couldn't possibly be because their mean levels of serum testosterone, which is related to aggression, are at least 15% higher than in white males.
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3455741
Nah.... systemic wacism.
n/a xXx420VTECxXx 2017-04-22
^ Winner winner chicken dinner
Add that in with no valuable jobs, drugs crime and low socio economic areas and you have a recipe for disaster.
n/a joe_jaywalker 2017-04-22
Sure except I would argue that crime and to some extent drugs are effects, not causes.
n/a xXx420VTECxXx 2017-04-22
I agree.
n/a trombonetoe 2017-04-22
Reported to the defamation league of B'nai B'rith for spreading problematic nonkosher hatefacts.
n/a Talksintext 2017-04-22
It's a complicated situation, with two ways to look at it. I'll start with yours.
Way 1: it's just their culture, and they need to stop glorifying rappers and violence. This certainly is true to an extent, and good luck finding a way to stop that. At this point, the entertainment industry is fully on board with selling them such a culture, which many are too eager to consume, creating a vicious cycle.
Way 2: it's a result of historic and current systemic issues plaguing the community, which results in a sense of hopelessness, impotence, and anger/hatred that has manifested itself as this ugly cultural thing. Additionally, many were ripped from their traditional African cultures and basically inherited the "white trash" culture of the plantation owners and overseers, then uprooted themselves from that culture and ended up in isolated impoverished and alienating urban ghettos. Given that "head start" (and note they only had full rights about 50 years ago, barely 2 generations), and the major ongoing issues they face the cultural outcome is to be expected.
Just look at one highly important facet: mass incarceration. So the culture breeds illegality, which in turn is reacted against by the mainstream with a mini police state where they are constantly hassled and stopped and ticketed and arrested for minor crimes or just "being black". Of course the criminals are duly processed by the court system, poorly defended and given far less leniency than other races, shuffled into prisons, alienated further from their community and family, then released back into society with no serious attempts by the state to rehabilitate them or make them employable, and now with the scarlet letter of "Felon" on their resumes. If they already weren't products of a godawful school system, itself improverished due to the local nature of school funding, this would seal their fate as "menial laborers" with no real hope of a decent or well paying job.
So helplessness, a feeling of alienation from the mainstream and each other, various poverty feedback loops, impotence to change a system that is bent against them, and basic emotions of anger result. An already impoverished culture in an incredibly toxic and poor environment creates what you have.
Fixing it is not easy. Especially when half the country just blames them for all their problems and wants more of them in jail. This is all ignoring racism.
n/a irwin_normal 2017-04-22
Couldn't have put it better myself
n/a FlyingDutchman34 2017-04-22
I agree and disagree.
I believe you make valid points regarding jailing. Obviously throwing people in jail hasn't helped people, improved people, or do me much in preventing crime. I agree that it's a complex situation and I'm not sure the best way to reform and deter crime (not just in Chicago). I agree that schools and funding of schools, particularly in poor neighborhoods, plays a pivotal role in children's lives and the path they end up taking.
Where I disagree is on race(which you you didn't ignore, BTW, it was your main narrative), where I believe poverty plays a bigger role than anything. Yes, its easy to blame race when more blacks are poor, but crime follows poverty and when blacks are statistically more impoverished (yes, likely still a remnant of slavery and segregation, but that's fading) when they are statistically more likely to commit crimes, we blame it on race, rather then poverty? Please. I'm not naive, I understand there is racism out there, I understand some thing do happen due to race, but not EVERYTHING bad that happens to a black persons is because they are black, but that's the narrative people are pushing.
I completely think the opposite, too many people blame race, rather than behaviors, actions, and choices. "I got pulled over for speeding because I'm black!" Well, sure you were going 50 in a 35 zone.... but yah it's cause your black. People don't steal because they are black, people don't murder someone cause they are black, it's cause they make a shit poor decision and yes, there should be consequences. But let's dismiss the fact that there are people out there murdering people on a daily basis, the only reason that's happening is cause of systemic racism... (/s)
n/a Talksintext 2017-04-22
Yes, I don't really disagree, but it's a very muddled situation. A lot of blacks also get pulled over for practically any small infraction, then have to pay an exorbitant fine (given their income situation due to poverty). I mean, the average white guy looks at a $250 fine and says, "well that sucks, oh well," whereas an impoverished minority making minimum wage and unable to cover expenses a lot of months looks at that as roughly 20% of his monthly income and often times has trouble coming up with the funds.
Let's not forget there's an awful lot of minor infractions, like a broken tail light, etc, that aren't related to driving at all, and are going to be found on cars where the owner is basically broke and struggling just to pay for gas. Maintenance is "when it stops working I buy a new one off CL." Basically, poverty is being criminalized, and then you have debtors' prisons in parts of the country.
Also, I go 50 in a 35 basically all the time, and I haven't been ticketed in almost a decade (and slid out of some pull-overs just cause the cop was so nice). That said, I drive a new car, am white, and live in an area with few cops. If I did that as a minority in a busted up beater in an urban ghetto where there's a cop every few blocks, I'd be out of a license by now. Is that just racism? No, a lot of it is just the terrain that comes with being a poor minority stuck in a heavily policed urban area.
There is of course this strain among the majority in our society, which you tapped into there, that black people just all need to take personal responsibility. And that is certainly true to an extent, but what needs to be recognized is that when they make the same mistakes as white people, they are punished far more often and more severely (if not solely due to the regressive nature of fines), all while culturally impoverished and with few professional options.
My overriding point is they do not exist in the same legal, economic, social, historical, or cultural framework that most white people do. And while a typical white woman shoplifting (way more common than most think) might rarely get caught and slapped on the wrist, a black man doing the same may likely find himself behind bars for a while, with a theft record since he didn't have a good attorney to get the charges brought down to something that wouldn't make his employment prospects far worse, because "personal responsibility" says the judge.
n/a FlyingDutchman34 2017-04-22
First, I'd like to say thanks for the well thought response and good dialogue. I can't tell you how often I get backlash (on here and in life) when I don't immediately just agree with someone on a subject such as this. Dialogue and good listening is the best way to open your mind to these types of topics!
Secondly, I actually agree with many of the points you make. Our system is hardly perfect and has its bias'. Confronting these and pushing for improvement and progress is a necessity, but it's always happened, it just doesn't always happen as quickly as some would like.
The only thoughts I'd nit pick on would be just how often and how severely blacks receive different treatment. I'll use getting pulled over by the police as a great example as it's definitely a hot. It tom issue. For starters only about 13% of black people get pulled over compared to 10% of white folks. 3% isn't really as big of a difference and many would expect. To counter that, men get pulled over 12% of the time compared to 8% for women, so if you argue preferential treatments to whites, then you should argue preferential treatment to women, which you'll never hear many liberals ever admit to. To push this further, 60% of blacks get tickets compared to 51% of whites getting ticketed. That's a 9% difference, that's not a huge portion either. This certainly shows some difference, but not the severe difference many people believe and try to push (that's 40% of the time a back person has a confrontation with a cop and doesn't even get s ticket, far from the "every black personal is being hunted down by the cops!" Narrative I often hear from so many. I believe there are many variable to these stats that aren't solely focused on race, but you can't argue race doesn't play some role here.
The last thing I want to say quickly, is that there are so many variables that affect these types of social issues, understanding that race plays a role is important, but also understanding that there are many variables that could affect punishments and fines and charges and just cause a black personal got a bigger fine or a harsher punishments doesn't always mean that the reason was cause they were black.
n/a SokarRostau 2017-04-22
How can their culture change so that Americans don't shoot and bomb tens of thousands of people at home and abroad every year?
n/a skorponok 2017-04-22
The culture is given to them, so it will change when those in power want it to change
n/a chickenshitmchammers 2017-04-22
Economic empowerment.
n/a freejosephk 2017-04-22
I mean, throw respectable jobs at them so they can support a family with, and they can live with dignity....who'd think that would work?
n/a chickenshitmchammers 2017-04-22
Who knows? It just might...
n/a elcad 2017-04-22
Sounds a like a pretty loaded question. Why "their" and not "our"? You have already declared them to be apart. from the rest of America, and yet you wonder what they have to do to change?