Then I wonder what does. I have no idea how else to help wake up the sheep without the use of facts and logic. I posted this on FB and the partisan dribble has already started to come through. "Bush bombed Afganistan 17K times in 2003." OK .... I was against Bush's illegal wars also. Going to war should never be partisan. But if you are Anti Bush, Anti Obama, Anti Trump, people don't know what the fuck to do. They can't label you in their little fantasy of what the world really is.

Can you elaborate? In your eyes from Trump the cyclical, bloodless coup? What do you mean by "The United States lost a war of subversion?" -- That our democracy has been subverted by oligarchs and the shadow govt?

I am so sick of hearing about it. Obama is done, its over he is out of office. Memorializing him as some kind of saint is sickening. I voted for Obama in 08 and 12, so I get it. Its taken me years to unwind my feelings about Obama and what he really is. I wanted so badly to believe that he was better than Bush, that he was different. He was going to end the unjust wars. It turns out I was just naive, and applying partisan politics to my value system. I don't know how to help wake people up because most people just simply don't take the time to actually understand what their leaders are doing, and can't wrap their heads around the fact that the leaders they voted for might not be as good as they thought. They just ingest the stupid memes and fall complacent to Obama's beautiful smile and adorable family.

What's ironic is that I see the same thing happening with Trump supporters. They want to believe so badly that he is different than the Obamas and the Bushes and the Clintons. But he comes from the same cloth. Only time will tell with Trump does. But one thing is a guarantee, his supporters are going to hold onto their beliefs about him no matter what damning evidence is provided to show otherwise. Just as the liberal counterparts have done with Obama. How do we get people to reject this partisan mantra of "us vs them" how do we get people to realize that it's not the "Democrats vs Republicans" its the "People vs the Govt"

If he doesn't go along with the CIA and Shadow Gov't's war machine he will likely be impeached or killed. If he does he'll be a hypocrite like all the others. I hope I'm wrong and there is another path here, but I think that's my naivety showing through again.

Eh. The happy medium you are referring to still involves war and innocent civilian deaths. I like to believe in compromise, but the American war machine is just somewhere that I don't see that as possible. I cannot find any justification for foreign policy that lends itself to war. And I haven't seen any President in modern history that hasn't led us to war.

I've spoken to some black people that have their eyes open. Predominately, its been my more self-aware friends that live in DC that have or still live in poverty. The income divide in DC is staggering, the people there know all too well how awful federal rule over their city has been and how disadvantaged that has made them. Many realized after a few years of Obama that he was not their savior, but others still made excuses and blamed it on the gov't, reserving that special exception for Obama. Basically if you are a true Democrat, 90% of you believe that Obama's administration has largely been a success. This is based purely on belief, not on actual facts. One of my DC friends posted this on FB recently: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kKMtqFbB004 a very profound and accurate assessment of what is wrong with black culture and idolizing Obama. And then 2-months later, she's become delusional again posting this: "THANK YOU OBAMAS FOr finally doing it right||YOU DIDNT FIX IT ALL, BUT REALLY; I HOPE NO ONE WAS REALLY SITTIN UP HERE EXPECTING THEM TO? 🤔 YALL FIXED A HELL OF A LOT THAT WAS WRONG WITH This COUNTRY AND FOR THAT MFS||bOW|| THEY DID EVERYTHING THEY COULD WITH WHAT THEY WERE GIVEN TO WORK WITH AND THEY FIXED WAY MORE MORAL & ethical ISSUES AND CORRUPT ASS SHIT The US Has done in all its history. Oh y'all mad cuz they black?! Eat it up, cuz the OBAMAS Slay'd they term with style and graaceee. Y'all can't F wit them|||they COOL AF, so intelligent, and sharp. FUCK RELATIONSHIP GOALS||| The Obamas are MY Whole Life and FAMILY goals, they just set the FXn bar||SALute||Long live The CHIEF|" Like WTF, did you just take the happy pills again?? Ppl are not living in fucking reality anymore.

People are so terrified of Trump because the media has us brainwashed, that they are rewriting their own fucking history.

Terrifying.

Its identity politics rearing its ugly head. Oh he is a good husband, he is a good father, he loves his family, he must be good. I voted for him because I believe in what he says he believes, I am a good person, so he must be good. I can't even get this point through to my own family. It's OK to be afraid of Trump, I certainly am too, its hard not to when you hear some of the crazy things Trump has said and that its been manufactured by the media. But misplacing that fear into believing that Obama was some kind of saint is incredibly misguided. A healthy fear of ALL our nation's leaders is something we need more of.

Just to clarify. I am white, but lived in DC for 4 years. I lived in a "not-so-great area", across the street from section 8 housing. There were shootings on my block at least once a month. Instead of hiding in my apartment like the other white people in my neighborhood, I went out and made friends with my neighbors. I was known as the crazy white cat lady, because people would see me running through the allys looking for my escaped cats (most of my neighbors had stray cats they fed, so an indoor cat didn't make a lot of sense). I've overgeneralized in my comments here, but if anything I've said is offensive to you, just let me know. I do not purport to understand the experiences of others, just share my opinions based on the conversations I've had with people.

I agree with you, it is likely well over the thousands mark. But without any "official report" or "evidence" I chose to low-ball here. I chose the figure thousands, because its an easier pill to swallow for my FB sheep, than millions.

Yep and ppl call me crazy when I denounce American foreign policy and accuse Obama of being a bad president. I swear we are living in the twilight zone sometimes, I still can't wrap my head around why ppl are OK with our endless perpetual wars.

Honestly, most of my FB friends are not " angry, indoctrinated war mongers" most of them believe in non-violence and peace and are simply Democrats who want to believe that Obama was a good president and when presented with facts that prove he is not what he seems, they either just flat out ignore it or do these kinds of mental gymnastics to justify his actions. 99% of the time its flat out denial or ignorance that wins out. "If it doesn't fit into my perception of reality, it must not be true. So therefore she is just crazy." If they do argue my very truthful FB posts, I tend to pick apart their arguments with more logic and they give up and deem me as "one of the crazy conspiracy theory lunatics." I'll continue to try to pop their bubble and push against the tide. When people use the "You are un-American" line I like to remind them that our country was founded on dissent, and not wanting our country to bomb innocent children doesn't make me unpatriotic, it actually makes me more patriotic because I want our country to be better than it is. This tends to shut them up very quickly.

Yes thankfully I do not personally know any of these kinds of Democrats. They are littered across the Democratic Party however. I too am left-leaning. It's refreshing to see that this sub is not littered with "Trump supporters" or "Hillary brigaders" as many posts as of late have implied. I've been afraid to post in here for that very reason. But this also seems to be the only place I can have a rational conversation about what is really going on here without being called a "tin foil hat crazy" (talking about /r/Politics obviously). I agree that Obama could have been worse for America, but he also could have been much much better, and fell flat on every one of his promises, and his foreign policy is just unforgivable in my eyes. I am considered an extremist because I find that there are very little, if any, justifiable reasons to engage in war. But alas that is not the reality we live in with the American Industrial Military Complex, and it won't change until more Americans share our sentiment that 70+ years of endless war is 70 years too many.

WTF is r/nolibswatch? It's like the antithesis of r/conspiracy

We all have our political leanings, its impossible for us to be completely unbiased rational beings. It's in our nature. I appreciate this sub because people actively question the narrative we are being spoon fed. It's refreshing and the comments are largely intelligent and logic/fact based.

Trying to find the definition. Do you have a link? This is all I could find: http://www.cfr.org/international-law/enemy-combatants/p5312 I know that this directly relates to our ability detain ppl (ie Guantanamo), but wasn't sure how it is used to hide civilian deaths.

Jesus I had forgotten that Obama labeled militants as all military-aged men in war zones.

I think you're on the wrong sub.

Then you are pro gov't intervention. Kinda the opposite of this sub honestly. It is a conspiracy when the gov't engages in continuous warfare, lies to us about the causalities and the purpose of going to said wars, and the media justifies our use of warfare and encourages our complacency of it. What compelled me to conspiracy theories in the first place was the 2003 bombings in Iraq and the realization that our gov't was lying to us about their reasons for engaging in war. Also, "they've been killing each other for thousands of years" is a broad oversimplification, and I have yet to see any facts that actually prove this claim, I am happy to see articles and academic journals that cite otherwise. It also doesn't take into account the 100s of years of European and American imperialism in the regions. The long and the short, I may be somewhat of an outlier, and I am happy for that, because I became anti-gov't, and a skeptic precisely because I deeply believe in anti-war and strongly impose all interventions in foreign affairs.Then again that could just make me a libertarian, who knows.

Oh interesting, I'm going to look for that Air Force report. I agree with your thought that Trump will be no different. People believing he will be different is reminiscent of mine and many others' beliefs that obama was somehow going to be different than Bush. We saw how well that worked

Its identity politics rearing its ugly head. Oh he is a good husband, he is a good father, he loves his family, he must be good. I voted for him because I believe in what he says he believes, I am a good person, so he must be good. I can't even get this point through to my own family. It's OK to be afraid of Trump, I certainly am too, its hard not to when you hear some of the crazy things Trump has said and that its been manufactured by the media. But misplacing that fear into believing that Obama was some kind of saint is incredibly misguided. A healthy fear of ALL our nation's leaders is something we need more of.

Trying to find the definition. Do you have a link? This is all I could find: http://www.cfr.org/international-law/enemy-combatants/p5312 I know that this directly relates to our ability detain ppl (ie Guantanamo), but wasn't sure how it is used to hide civilian deaths.

Yes thankfully I do not personally know any of these kinds of Democrats. They are littered across the Democratic Party however. I too am left-leaning. It's refreshing to see that this sub is not littered with "Trump supporters" or "Hillary brigaders" as many posts as of late have implied. I've been afraid to post in here for that very reason. But this also seems to be the only place I can have a rational conversation about what is really going on here without being called a "tin foil hat crazy" (talking about /r/Politics obviously). I agree that Obama could have been worse for America, but he also could have been much much better, and fell flat on every one of his promises, and his foreign policy is just unforgivable in my eyes. I am considered an extremist because I find that there are very little, if any, justifiable reasons to engage in war. But alas that is not the reality we live in with the American Industrial Military Complex, and it won't change until more Americans share our sentiment that 70+ years of endless war is 70 years too many.